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I welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world
with me Boris Johnson I'm standing in
for George and gaty cuz I want to make
the case for what I think would be an
absolutely spiffing regime change
operation in Syria okay it might help
those Isis chappies and lead to World
War II but if it does don't worry I'm
your foreign
secretary okay Boris don't call us we'll
call you my name is Neil Clark and I am
standing in for Georg and gatri on the
Sputnik now it has been said of him that
nobody knew black Britain its history
its fears its hopes more than the writer
and civil rights activist darkus how who
sadly died this month at the age of
74 darkus campaigned tirelessly and
fearlessly Against Racism and the ill
treatment of black people by the
authorities back in 1981 he famously
organized a 20,000 strong black people's
day of action in protest at the handling
of the investigation into the new
Crossfire in which 13 black teenagers
died joining me now to discuss darker
how's Life and Legacy is author and
fellow civil rights campaigner TK mmud T
I like darkus how you were very very
active weren't you in the anti-racist
struggle in the 1980s can you tell us a
bit about your campaigns that you
thought back then for sure darkus was a
a senior to us and I wasn't active out
of choice but because racist and racism
came knocking on our doors so the 70s
and 80s as the sort of a period for us
who grew up in Britain at that time it
was a period of intense State racism
Street racism gangs of paky Bashas
African and Asian Youth and people were
treated slightly differently but in
terms of our resistance and some of the
legacies that I do share is that we
stood up against the forces of the state
and one of the important things I I'd
like to sort of try to clarify that I am
also part of the black movement and a
movement is consists of many different
levels and layers there were men in the
movement there were women in the
movement there were youth they were old
there were workers there were Community
organizations we didn't always
share the same views on things but what
we did share was the commonality of
experience which forced us to unite on
certain issues and the divisions that
may have existed were hidden and held
back for the need of our us resisting
and fighting back yes and you were
obviously one of the Bradford 12 weren't
you in that famous case in the 198 could
you tell us a bit more about that what
happened to you there we were told we
were we had organized a defense we had
armed ourselves and organized a
community self-defense because we were
told that fascists were coming to
Bradford the police went around and told
people to stay in their houses we took
the view no you cannot stay in your
houses when if your streets are about to
be attacked and if you're going to be
attacked by armed groups then you have a
legal political and a human right to
defend yourselves in an appropriate
manner they were armed we had to be
organized we had to be armed but these
are not race riots these are not all
black and white these are periods in
which fascist are political
organizations they're mobilized for
specific events and that's what we did
the police took this simple little
position and built a m Mountain out of a
mle hill really and presented us as a
group of terrorists who were go setting
out to blow up the police station and
raise the town which was complete
nonsense and you were acquitted
obviously we were acquitted we were I
mean I conducted my own defense there
were 12 of us we were all acquitted but
we wouldn't have been acquitted had
there not been uh huge numbers of people
in their thousands defending us
including dark dark is that where you
first met darkus was it I think I met
darkus over the years in different
places but I was also on the
demonstration following the new cross
Massacre okay but we had a long history
of Afric afro Asian Unity we were United
in the black movement it's not like of
today that suddenly the black and Asian
as a concept is divided we fought in the
organization I belong to was called the
United black youth league right why is
that today why don't the black and Asian
anti-racist movements come together as
they did so well in the 1980s I think
that there's no choice there will but
the import thing is what's the
difference between now and then the race
when we were growing up a lot of the
violence that we faced at the time on
the street was against men okay and you
know now the violence against women is
so enormous now that's not why there is
a Division I think islamophobia the new
race the racism of the modern era of
today has created its own Dynamics and
divisions so that when you divide people
along religious lines it's not simply
along black and white lines there are
many other Shades of Gray in between but
the most important aspect here is I
think that we have we had a vision all
of us shared a vision and that was not
simply fighting against that which we
were fighting against but also fighting
for something we wanted a better world
we lived with white people who were
dieul poor right who were organizing in
factories in Mills in community centers
and in accidentally the poverty now is
far greater than it was in the 70s and
80s absolutely in some areas and the
sense of hope has gone it's all a sense
of hopelessness the unions got smashed
Community organizations got smashed the
idea that we could build a better world
it seems to have slipped so far away
because constantly the world has got
worse right and the foreign policies the
British governments and American
governments have made it worse haven't
they surely with the series of attacks
on Muslim countries around the world
how has that really impacted you think
on the race relations back home and and
fueled islamophobia for example they
didn't start in the recent following the
American incident they started way back
in fact they've never stopped for 500
years I can't think of a day when the
British army has not been involved in
action in some part of the World perhaps
your viewers can tell me a date and
correct my memory but the point is let's
not forget that 79 and 80 and mid 80s
are not that far away they were funding
the mujahidin the so-called Freedom
Fighters who were fighting against the
Soviets and the Communists within
Afghanistan and I witnessed it some of
my friends went over to fight them we
had huge arguments we had arguments on
where do you fight anti-semitic ISM
we've said you fight it where it exists
I live in Britain it's a form of racism
we fight it here where do you fight the
racism that we are confronted not by
going to Afghanistan you fight it where
you are these were not International
brigades going out to Republican these
were very often paid people to spread
really vicious pernicious uh dogmatic
religious type of uh ideologies and the
consequence of that is a Continuum these
are the very same forces that have per
permeated and changed and and
metamorphosized into what we see today
so the policy of the British and
American government actually hasn't
changed what has changed is us and the
for that resist them but most
importantly they no longer have the r
and the power to dictate anything and
everything they do but in the Arab world
is particularly where the viciousness of
their racism is so obvious which other
part of the world have we seen such
destruction as we have in Libya in Yemen
in Syria in absolutely uh looking at
back back at Britain would you say
therefore that the situation is better
today was in the 70s ' 80s in in some
cases the more kind of outrageous racism
perhaps is less apparent today but in
fact it might be more subtle in other
words that the racis racism has changed
its form if you like would that be a
fair assessment uh racism always changed
its form nothing Remains the Same the
old racism has not gone away but a new
one has come in its place in in in terms
of islamophobia and what I find
ridiculous it's reduced to hate crime
hate crime it is not hate crime it's
racism just got a different name it's
infinitely worse than it was before
because at least when they when in now
they just don't even pretend to it I
can't watch the BBC anymore right it's
so
incredibly biased and and also for all
the mainstream issues but also there is
this smugness in the west somehow we
have to jump to their agenda yes and we
have the right to regime change in Arab
and Muslim countries we have the right
to say Assad must go G but of course the
syrians have absolutely no right do they
no of course to say Cameron must go and
that is inherently racist isn't it when
you think about it I think racism is far
more it's an ideology to it's it's you
can see the fibers of Britain being
pulled apart but it's not racism that
will pull them apart actually racism
will weld them together and that also
applies in America it also very clearly
can be seen within France and within
Germany and within Austria and all these
Western European countries that the
racism over here is an ideological tool
that has been used and perfected not not
in a conspiratorial way but as a system
of holding people down and in that sense
the situation today is infinitely worse
infinitely worse than in the 70s and '
80s when yeah 17 and' 80s and if we had
the extreme right or fascists you might
get 10 or 20 of them like the national
front or its equivalent in different
permutations of that time and you'd have
2,000 policemen protecting them and tens
of thousands of anti-racist it's not the
case anymore now the situation is the
other way around there are huge amounts
of organizations but the the difference
I think it is that there is a right-wing
popularism that's Rising across Western
Europe how can we explain that t we have
history to judge ourselves last time
this wave Rose was in the 30s the reason
it Rose in the 30s is because there was
a huge crisis an economic crisis there
was a slump everything was going down
and therefore these forces raised their
heads when I look down in the Northern
areas it's dire the poverty within
Britain is dire I went came coming here
from Manchester there isn't a bridge
under which the homeless don't sleep my
God in the richest country in the world
you have people sleeping it's shocking
there is Beggars just know where I live
every few yards there are Beggars and
they're in direful state they're not you
know some are mental health patients
some are just really poor and when you
have this sort of a thing it's very easy
to deflect from the central
contradiction and the central
contradiction isn't the color of skin
but it's political forces using that and
immigrants have been a clobbering stick
for as long as I can remember that's a
very good point I think you write
fiction as well don't you T and that's a
kind of Escape is it from this well I
think so I think what's going wrong in
the world today or is it well it's a
world in which I can try to make sense
of the you know the mess of life you
have a new book out coming I do indeed I
I have a new book out I was uh because
I've never known anything but war and I
I asked myself the question you
know where do these forces emerge from
so my story is really a 77y old
Pakistani atheist who becomes a suicide
bomber in Manchester but why would
somebody who doesn't believe in God
become that fiction I suppose is the One
World in which we can suspend our
disbelief and and uh talk where animals
can talk the wind can talk the trees the
moon the sun they can all be give us
metaphoric messages but we actually now
live in the world where in order to
survive we have to suspend our disbelief
simply to believe the unbelievable
morons who rule our world so the book is
called the song of GS Arena the book's
out now thank you so much for coming on
the spck T has been absolute Joy have
you on the program thank you so much
don't go away because after the break
we'll be crossing the Atlantic to
discuss James Baldwin and the fight for
civil rights in the United
States welcome back to Sputnik with me
Neil Clark standing in for Georgian
gaty I am not your negro is a
provocative piece that has acquired an
extra Dimension and significance since
the wave of reaction politics bought in
by Donald Trump swallow The American
Nation this documentary film is based on
James Baldwin's unfinished manuscript
remember this house and is narrated by
the actor Samuel L Jackson it explores a
history of racism in the US through
Baldwin's memories of civil rights
leaders megar ever Malcolm X and Martin
Luther King Jr as well as their tragic
and untimely deaths with us today to
discuss the film is the film journalist
and director of dmovies Victor frager
Victor welcome on board the Sputnik
thank you very much thank you very much
for coming on and can you tell us about
this film and why we should be going to
see it why is it important
well obviously a lot has changed in the
world in the past uh in the past 12
months or so when this film was
completed it it was 201 or yes 2016 2016
it was already an urgent piece of Cinema
because it basically holds up a mirror
to to the US and say say look you are a
racist Society it is that black and
white there's a lot of racism racism is
pervasive now get up and do something
about it uh since then things have
become um far more serious we have seen
a huge reactionary backlash in the world
we have seen the uh the racist politics
of Donald Trump I come from Brazil where
we saw Auda there's a lot of extreme
rightwing movements in the UK and in
Europe and obviously none of that uh
Works in favor of Tolerance uh the civil
rights movement did achieve a lot the
film talks about um Medgar ver malol Max
was doubly subversive not just being
black and an activist but also being
being a Muslim and uh Martin Luther King
all three of them were murdered for for
similar reasons so perhaps suggesting
that establishment wasn't ready to deal
with such vocal people um Balwin is so
invigorating his intelligence and his
wits are really contagious so um the
film is also very very cleverly put
together there's an image of uh dory's
day dancing around Jolly blindly unaware
of racism and that's contrasted with
black people being hung in trees so it's
a film that's America in the 50s yeah or
early 60s still going on yeah well uh
people weren't being hung in the 60s but
the film Blends images and events from
from throughout history to show that uh
we we need to do something about racism
so uh Balwin died in um in '87 his
manuscripts were unfinished they chose
samel El Jackson and name everyone will
recognize to narrate the film that's for
that's again for for for a reason so
that um we have had um a an American
president a black American president but
this is not to say that um racism is
entirely gone and we had the Ferguson
riots um just a few years ago following
um the killing of of an innocent
American Teenager the the American
Steven Lawrence um and uh we are
certainly going to see a lot of negative
developments the film at one point it
exposes American advertising of freedom
in the 60s so selling the land of the
free and contrasts that against police
op question of rioting so um that was in
the 60s if the film was made now I think
we could very well get Trump's advert of
American first which they have mocked
all over the world they did this jman
second Brazil second you've probably
seen that yeah so if the film was made
as here Ro Pac who is Haitian um which
is an irony elf as well he would
probably get that American first advert
and contrast against the Ferguson riots
so exactly what you got in the 60s still
happening now so the racism is still
there and the worst part is that the
bigots are feeling energized with the
election of Donald Trump with
reactionary developments all over the
world and uh it's very important that
people go watch this film and that uh
they do realize racis racism is not is
not history it's it's just reinvented
itself Victor is there perhaps a danger
that by focusing SE too much on Trump we
kind of minimized the racism that
existed pre- Trump and to try to make
out that things were great you know
before his election I mean economically
the poorest four states of the US are
the states with the highest black
percentage of population the Deep South
States and that this is a problem that
has been going on for an awful long time
well that that that's certainly true
Trump uh is not the cause Trump is a is
a is is the consequence we shouldn't
shoot the messenger
um as you pointed out black people are
in the poorest states in the Deep South
that's for historical reasons what we've
seen obviously slavery come came to an
end yet black people still deny the
voice and that's partially through mass
incarceration so people who have been
incarcerated who have a criminal record
in the US are not entitled Revol as a
consequence how long does that last for
is that is that 10 years 20 years I
think it varies state by state I'm not
entirely sure but I think it's for life
I think it's for Life depending on on
the serious of the of the offense or the
felony or or whatever or whatever they
call it but that does prevent a very
significant chunk of black people as
much as 30% of of black male adults from
voting and that's one reason why the the
states in the sou always votes a
republican because black people who tend
to vote a democratic are are denied
voice Obama being uh a black man was
certainly um a huge achievement but it
didn't sort the problem of racism racism
in the US is very much at a
face on one hand because American
Constitution vouches for freedom of
expression in a different way from the
UK and the UK is is a little bit blurry
so basically in the US anyone can say
anything they want so so you had people
carrying out plets saying get the out we
don't want the Negroes and that would
have been much less acceptable here so
that's bad but on the other hand that's
also good because when you see something
so violent people react so open and
blatant yeah you like open and blatant
that's why you that's why you had people
like Malcolm ax that's why you you had
people like Martin Luther King Jr in the
US um that's also why a lot of the Black
Talent in cinema in the US okay migrates
to uh to the US so uh so Steve McQueen
hold the 12 Years a Slave he's British
um he is Idis Elba he's he's out also
British so why is it that a lot of the
Black Talent migrates uh migrates to the
US perhaps because the the issue of race
in here is much more subtle there's
diversity standards the baa has
diversity standards the BFI has
diversity standards uh yet we're not
seeing um a very very
vocal black artist in in the British
film industry not to the same extent as
as Lee for example Ley is is
is a legend himself um and I think
that's related to the fact that in the
in the US you have the the very
aggressive reactionary movement because
they have freedom freedom of expression
and and and a backlash against that so
people tend to be very vocal on both
both sides as opposed to Britain where
it's not so in your face the racism it's
not so blatant perhaps and so we don't
get the reaction to it is as strong as
in the US yeah that's fascinating what
about Brazil can I ask you about Brazil
you're a Brazilian yeah is Brazil a
racist Society how would it compare with
the US and the UK profoundly racist what
I would call the US um openly racist
Society I would call the UK um class
racism if I may say so or classism it's
all and Brazil in Brazil we have cordal
racism a lot of people believe Brazil is
tolerant because the ultimate Brazilian
stereotype is the m is the mixed race so
people mistake misation for tolerance
Brazil is a deeply mixed country but
that's not because people are tolerant
that's for very tragic historical
reasons well first of all when the
United States were was colonized whole
families moved across there when Brazil
was colonized only the male Portuguese
moved to Brazil and so they would start
m ating with the locals with with the
indigenous the practice called quism and
later on during uh the slave period
misation happened through Mass rape so
the so the owners of the Farms would
rape uh the black women so by no means
Brazil is tolerant because uh or is
mixed because it's tolerant so there's
still a lot of racism in Brazil we've
never certainly never had a had a a
black president but uh in Brazil people
tedly belief that uh black people are
good footballers and good musicians but
they shouldn't be really taken seriously
can I just ask you which countries you
think are doing well on racism if there
any you've been to or lived in or or you
think have a very tolerant attitude I do
you think that the
UK had has done a good job um I do think
that the UK is generally less racist uh
than all the places that they they they
uh they have made huge improvements and
that that's that's should do with the
Imperial history um people from all the
colonies have come here and so one way
or the other we had to get used to
living with blacks living with people
from the Americas from Asia and so on
obviously it's not nothing to do with
the fact that the British are naturally
more tolerant British imperialism was
was filled with Colonial ideas of racial
superiority so so so it's not that but I
do think this country has has has done a
lot um in order to fight
racism Europe might be a lot more
leftwing in many ways but but Europe is
deeply racist Germany is racist I mean I
look at France with with Marine Leen now
um Spain is racist so you're not going
to certainly not going to get all
nations holding hand together and saying
we're we're we're going to fight racism
but uh but I like to believe and there
will certainly be a reaction again
history is pendula a few years ago five
out of 10 years ago things were looking
much much better uh if I looked two
years back I never thought we would be
where where we are now we say with Mar
in Leen in France well she hasn't won
but just the fact that she's doing quite
well it's quite scary Trump in the US a
a reactionary kud time Brazil I never
thought we I'd see that just uh just two
years ago um but I like to think there
will be a backlash I'd like to think
Cinema is going to play a very important
and in that backlash I would like to
urge everyone not just black
people but people of all Creeds and all
callers and all racist to watch uh to
watch uh I am not your negro because
it's a film about being
marginalized about making your voice
heard about breaking some eggs in order
to make an omlette well I'm going to go
watch it tonight I think you me a great
guest thank you very much Victor thank
for coming on the sputnic well
unfortunately that's all we got time for
on this week's Sputnik I been Neil Clark
standing in for George and gatri and as
George would
say it's been marvelous
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